Talk:Palestinian political violence
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Palestinian political violence article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() | On 2 April 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Palestinian terrorism. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors |
dismantling of the State of Israel
[edit]Why was the statement Some perpetrators of these acts support the dismantling of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Arab state
removed? This was the explicit goal of the PLO and Hamas in the past, and in case of Hamas many scholars believe this is still the case. It was indeed an example of WP:OVERCITE and not all references were relevant but the statement itself is hardly controversial. Alaexis¿question? 08:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Seems like a casualty of the sock editing. Anyway,
in the past
and Hamas currently says (and have indicated similarly in the past, could be true, who knows) that they will settle for a two state solution on 67 borders. So presenting it as a current true statement without any qualification seems POV. - Perhaps focus on the body first instead of fixating on the lead. Selfstudier (talk) 10:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Khaled Mashal said a few months ago that Hamas would not accept a permanent two-state solution [1]. But that doesn't really matter. The sentence only says that *some* of the perpetrators want to destroy the state of Israel and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have always rejected the two-state solution and called for the destruction of Israel. Alaexis¿question? 12:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- The claim that "some" want to "destroy" Israel is not necessarily leadworthy (some means >= 1). Rejecting a two-state solution is not calling for "destruction" of Israel. The word choice "perpetrators" is pov. DMH223344 (talk) 22:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- The goals are mentioned in the Groups section already. Obviously the article needs some work, but this is an important aspect of the Palestinian violence that should be mentioned in the lede. Alaexis¿question? 12:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Khaled Mashal said a few months ago that Hamas would not accept a permanent two-state solution [1]. But that doesn't really matter. The sentence only says that *some* of the perpetrators want to destroy the state of Israel and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad have always rejected the two-state solution and called for the destruction of Israel. Alaexis¿question? 12:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
"This was the explicit goal of the PLO"
- Please don't just throw out claims that have no basis in facts. From Slater:
DMH223344 (talk) 22:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)Even before Arafat came to power, the PLO was primarily secular, had sought to separate religion from politics, and had called for the creation in Palestine of a democratic and secular state. Indeed, many PLO leaders specifically denounced anti-Semitism and emphasized their intention to accept Jews as equal citizens in a new Palestine.
- How does it contradict the statement in question? Even taking Slater at face value (the word "some" does a lot of work there), the "creation in Palestine of a democratic and secular state" necessarily implies the dismantling of the state of Israel.
- Anyway, we need RS that explicitly state that this was one of the goals of the political violence to include it, I'm going to look for such sources. Alaexis¿question? 19:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- It was very much a casualty of sock editing. Keeping that in mind I think the wise course of action is to discuss these edits here, determine appropriate inclusion, and then put up something that is acceptable to consensus after. Simonm223 (talk) 20:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Galamore please engage here to discuss this edit. Simonm223 (talk) 14:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- This text has been long-standing on this article, so WP:BRD stands here with the former version, not the removal of the content...
- The calls for destroying Israel has been prominent in the ideologies of Palestinian militant groups, including the two most prominent nowadays, Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Removing this text is ignoring a major aspect of Palestinian violence
- Galamore (talk) 06:54, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- QUO only lasts until material is challenged. How long was the material present and what consensus did it have when it was added? Selfstudier (talk) 10:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- The text has been in the entry at least from September 3, 2022 to February 19, 2024. SigTif (talk) 16:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm confused now, I cannot find the text "Some perpetrators of these acts..." in that Sep 3 2022 revision.
- Can we be specific about which text is claimed as having been in the article since then (or some other date). Selfstudier (talk) 17:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- The text has been in the entry at least from September 3, 2022 to February 19, 2024. SigTif (talk) 16:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- QUO only lasts until material is challenged. How long was the material present and what consensus did it have when it was added? Selfstudier (talk) 10:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Galamore please engage here to discuss this edit. Simonm223 (talk) 14:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- You said the explicit goal of the PLO was at some point "to destroy the state of Israel". In what world is the establishment of a secular democratic state equivalent to "destroying" a state? With word choice like "destroy", you better have strong evidence to back it up. Do not just throw out claims. DMH223344 (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but it's unclear who "you" is in this case. Regardless we should try to avoid personalizing this discussion and, instead, focus on neutral reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 16:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Even if it were true, isn't it also true that the other side has not only said it (if not in so many words) but also demonstrated a clear intent to destroy Palestine? This sort of rhetoric is I think not unusual in the given circumstances. In between times, the sides have negotiations about two states ie not destroying either. Selfstudier (talk) 16:06, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- This article is about Palestinian political violence, not Israeli, so this comment is irrelevant. WP:NOTAFORUM. Galamore (talk) 06:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- How does recognizing Israel and entering into negotiations for a 2 state solution based on 67 borders count as a call for the destruction of Israel? Selfstudier (talk) 10:48, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- This article is about Palestinian political violence, not Israeli, so this comment is irrelevant. WP:NOTAFORUM. Galamore (talk) 06:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- It was very much a casualty of sock editing. Keeping that in mind I think the wise course of action is to discuss these edits here, determine appropriate inclusion, and then put up something that is acceptable to consensus after. Simonm223 (talk) 20:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
I've tried to come up with a compromise. If we consider the 3 most powerful Palestinian factions (Fatah/PLO/PNA, Hamas and the Islamic Jihad), one of them had the destruction of Israel as its goal prior to the Oslo agreements and one (PIJ) clearly still has it as the goal. Regarding Hamas, different observers have different opinions, but many of them think that the whole of the Mandate Palestine remains the long-term goal (see the Atlantic article linked here and more scholarly sources in the Hamas article). Considering that this discussion is about the lede, I think that "Some factions have called for the destruction of Israel" is a fair summary of the situation. Alaexis¿question? 11:22, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
- Unless you can define what "destruction of Israel" actually means, its not wise to have ambiguous phrases. Does it mean a state with equal rights for Arabs and Jews? VR (Please ping on reply) 04:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- +1, this is the usual scaremongering a la River to the sea debate where POV assigns a particular meaning to a phrase that simply suits a narrative. Afaics atm, this supposed destruction is not of Israel but of Palestine and the phrase simply a reaction to that. Selfstudier (talk) 09:37, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Yezid Sayight's book
[edit]What's wrong with it? Why was it [2]? Alaexis¿question? 11:16, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
change government involvement to Palestinian Authority involvement
[edit]Reasons for this change:
- 1. Palestine doesn't have a central government, Fatah is charge of the West Bank and Hamas is in charge of Gaza
- 2. Most of the content is directed towards Fatah/PLO/Palestinian Authority figures
- 3. This selection is a bit problematic, as seems like accusation of incitement or glorifying people means that they are involved in political violence. Also the timeframe, as whole article mentions events since 1948, while this selection talks about incidents since 2000. Also which government? (there is a mention of Iraq) During the conflict, many countries governments or military groups were involved in Palestinian Political violence at various points in time
Phone calls are not violence
[edit]I'm going to remove the entire section on Palestinians making prank phone call to Israeli emergency services.VR (Please ping on reply) 04:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Chemical weapons
[edit]The entire section on chemical weapons is UNDUE. There has never actually been chemical or biological attacks. I'm removing that section.VR (Please ping on reply) 05:01, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Proposing a missing quote in paragraph "Oslo Accords to Camp David Summit (1993–2000)"
[edit]Statement with missing quote: "In this period, suicide bombings of Israeli buses and crowded spaces as a regular tactic, ..." https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel lists victims and details on the kind of attac. While it doesn't provide a statistical evaluation, it gives an impression of frequency even at first glance. 2A02:8071:8289:EC00:D1B4:2794:2477:A291 (talk) 07:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Not done We do not consider JVL a reliable source. Zerotalk 07:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia controversial topics
- B-Class British Empire articles
- Mid-importance British Empire articles
- All WikiProject British Empire pages
- B-Class Israel-related articles
- High-importance Israel-related articles
- WikiProject Israel articles
- B-Class Palestine-related articles
- High-importance Palestine-related articles
- Palestine-related articles needing attention
- WikiProject Palestine articles
- B-Class Terrorism articles
- Low-importance Terrorism articles
- WikiProject Terrorism articles
- B-Class politics articles
- Mid-importance politics articles
- WikiProject Politics articles
- B-Class Crime-related articles
- Mid-importance Crime-related articles
- WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles