Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous
of the Wikipedia reference desk.
Main page: Help searching Wikipedia
How can I get my question answered?
- Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
- Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
- Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
- Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
- Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
- Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.
How do I answer a question?
Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines
- The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.
August 3
[edit]Simone Biles and marker pen
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/CVN80_First_Cut_of_Steel_%2836828380355%29.jpg/220px-CVN80_First_Cut_of_Steel_%2836828380355%29.jpg)
Why did Simone Biles hold a marker pen with five (or four) fingers rather than two, as did other women in the picture and most other people while writing or drawing? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 19:00, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some people hold a pen in different ways. --Viennese Waltz 19:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Look up "types of pencil grips" on Google Images and you'll see a variety. Also look up videos of her signing autographs. It might be that this is how she's most comfortable signing autographs dozens of times a day. Komonzia (talk) 23:51, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you hold a pen with less than four fingers, you get a 0.1 deduction. Them's the rules of gymnastic penmanship! Clarityfiend (talk) 09:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- Rather reminiscent of the grip used by Japanese calligraphers. In my 1960s childhood in England, we were taught the "correct" way to hold a pen at school; it seems that the education system is less prescriptive in these enlightened times, but the result is that younger folks sometimes hold their writing implements in ways that seem rather awkward to me. Alansplodge (talk) 14:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
August 5
[edit]Tesla Cybertruck - What conventional English grammar/spelling template should be used?
[edit]Should the article be in American English? I feel like that's correct since Tesla's HQ is in California. I would like to add that to the talk page, but I need a consensus vote to apply the change. Article: Tesla Cybertruck. Ṫḧïṡ ṁëṡṡäġë ḧäṡ ḅëëṅ ḅṛöüġḧẗ ẗö ÿöü ḅÿ ᗰOᗪ ᑕᖇEᗩTOᖇ 🏡 🗨 📝 19:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- What is it currently? Is it all British, or is it a mix? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not know. I have a feeling it's all AmE (American English), but I could be wrong. Just making sure it's all according to conventions. ѕιη¢єяєℓу ƒяσм, ᗰOᗪ ᑕᖇEᗩTOᖇ 🏡 🗨 📝 23:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I may be wrong, but I think the usual practice here is to leave an article alone if its use of either British or American English is consistent within the article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not know. I have a feeling it's all AmE (American English), but I could be wrong. Just making sure it's all according to conventions. ѕιη¢єяєℓу ƒяσм, ᗰOᗪ ᑕᖇEᗩTOᖇ 🏡 🗨 📝 23:56, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're concerned about. After reading/skimming the article, I found only one Britishism: "Tesla stated that they use". Everything else would pass US Grammar Police inspection, as far as I can see, and it is available only in North America, so American English seems the logical choice. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:55, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- You can find this use also by (presumably) US speakers, like on Daily Kos, "
Tesla put in a 6.5 foot long bed with a lockable and retractable cover which they claim is strong enough to stand on. ... Tesla has said that they'll have a battery-day for investors in the spring, ...
".[1] To become a true Britishism, we'd need to see a plural verb form, as in, "Tesla have stated that ...". --Lambiam 11:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)- Yeah, American usage is a little complex. In more "static" things or when the action is more attributable to the company as a whole, a singular verb form is used. But when the construction is more active or would be more easily understood as the actions of multiple people, a plural verb is used. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I feel it has more to do with what is meant by a word like "Tesla." Is it "(The people who work at) Tesla say that they..." or is it "(The company that is named) Tesla has shown it will..." 12.116.29.106 (talk) 15:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Didn't I say "company as a whole" and "multiple people"? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I feel it has more to do with what is meant by a word like "Tesla." Is it "(The people who work at) Tesla say that they..." or is it "(The company that is named) Tesla has shown it will..." 12.116.29.106 (talk) 15:15, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, American usage is a little complex. In more "static" things or when the action is more attributable to the company as a whole, a singular verb form is used. But when the construction is more active or would be more easily understood as the actions of multiple people, a plural verb is used. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- You can find this use also by (presumably) US speakers, like on Daily Kos, "
August 6
[edit]Weird social phenomenon
[edit]Why does a room full of people suddenly go silent at random points in time? TWOrantulaTM (enter the web) 03:57, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Who says so? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Check it out.. manya (talk) 06:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Statistics? Conversations don't go non-stop, and the pauses may just line up at the same time. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- An angel has passed. --Error (talk) 16:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- User:TrademarkedTWOrantula, you are mixing up multiple phenomenons and confusing it as a single experience. Please see salience, selective auditory attention, sensory memory, crowd psychology, and collective animal behavior. Like you, I have also witnessed the silence of crowds, but there are many different factors and reasons for this, some of which may be random, some of which may not. I would invite you to study this yourself up close and personal in a busy bar, restaurant, or club where the opportunity will present itself. For the most part, there are good explanations for the silences, which often involve a trigger or stimulus that the rest of the crowd will respond to with silence. There's also elements of spontaneous order and self-organization at work. What I've found is that people will often respond to or mimic what others are doing, probably without even thinking about it. This explains how a loud crowd in a restaurant or bar will suddenly go silent for no apparent reason. Viriditas (talk) 23:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I recall that forty years ago, people[who?] were commenting on this phenomenon, and claiming that it always occurred at 20 minutes past or to the hour (but not on the hour).[citation needed], but none given. Personally, I think it's fractal. See also Apophenia. -- Verbarson talkedits 22:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- The link provided by manya points to something called the protection postulate, which I vaguely remember hearing about. It is described as a period of time when "humans lapse into silence so that they can listen for danger in the manner of their prehistoric ancestors". Do we have an article on this or should I create one? Viriditas (talk) 22:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Long before clocks were invented, a covenant was concluded between our ancestors and their predators, regulating that predators would only attack 20 minutes after the hour. This not only explains why we collectively listen for immanent attacks not all the time but right then – it is chiseled into our collective unconscious – but also why cats, descendants of these prehistoric predators, go crazy for food 20 minutes after the hour. Of course we should document this important scientific theory that has been neglected if not maligned by the self-appointed guardians of "official" science. --Lambiam 19:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, it sounds ridiculous. Viriditas (talk) 00:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Long before clocks were invented, a covenant was concluded between our ancestors and their predators, regulating that predators would only attack 20 minutes after the hour. This not only explains why we collectively listen for immanent attacks not all the time but right then – it is chiseled into our collective unconscious – but also why cats, descendants of these prehistoric predators, go crazy for food 20 minutes after the hour. Of course we should document this important scientific theory that has been neglected if not maligned by the self-appointed guardians of "official" science. --Lambiam 19:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- The link provided by manya points to something called the protection postulate, which I vaguely remember hearing about. It is described as a period of time when "humans lapse into silence so that they can listen for danger in the manner of their prehistoric ancestors". Do we have an article on this or should I create one? Viriditas (talk) 22:08, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Random is clumpy. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 05:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
filming location
[edit]Here is a screenshot from the movie The Verdict with Paul Newman and I would like to know where this location can be found. https://s20.directupload.net/images/240806/hvvl8par.png Many locations in Boston and New York (Brooklyn Heights) have been identified, this one not. I think there's a church in the background. Thank you! --Chris06 (talk) 10:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boston or Reddit. Someone who has lived in Boston for a long time is likely to know - but areas like this have probably been regenerated since the 80s when it was filmed. I asked ChatGPT, it is pretty good at Geoguesser, but got very confident wrong/inconclusive answers. These sources might have more about The Verdict than is currently online: Boston Public Library, Digital Commonwealth (which focuses on Massachusetts), or maybe the Boston City Archives? Komonzia (talk) 05:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! --Chris06 (talk) 13:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Compile a list of sources
[edit]Category of which I have been trying to get your attention or order for me to be able to get a free license
screensaver and competition enforcement services for business owners with a variety range from a broad country's financial environment Bookkeeping@Damiyo 41.121.25.255 (talk) 17:38, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have read this four times I and have no idea or understanding of what you are asking for. ColinFine (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Can I move this thread a second time? I don't think this is the proper venue for unintelligible word salad. Folly Mox (talk) 22:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- While we have no clue what the user who posted this is seeking, they will have no clue what happened to their question and won't see a reply posted here anyway. --Lambiam 09:47, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
A report is being prepared for the coroner
[edit]Here's a news report from today's smorgasbord. Dot point 3 says "a report is being prepared for the coroner". I've seen this wording literally thousands of times ("is being prepared" and "will be prepared" are the usual formulations).
I have to wonder why news organisations feel the need to always tell us this. It's obviously a perfectly normal part of the procedure of investigating deaths that occur other than from natural causes. The police who attended the scene may have formed a strong opinion that the cause was suicide, or an accident, or foul play, or whatever. But it's not their call to make any sort of official announcement about the cause. That's the coroner's job. The way these sentences are worded suggests the readers are already aware of coroners and their role in the justice process, so telling us that a report is being prepared seems like one of those cases where "we do it this way because we've always done it this way, and nobody ever questions that, least of all the writers of these news items".
Is there actually any value in these statements? Is this solely an Australian thing? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:31, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think there's two simple explanations. Firstly, the article you are referring to includes prepared copy that is provided by the authorities, often the investigating agencies, to the media for release. The news agencies then include this copy in their final publications; that's why you see it all the time. In the states, we have similar wording for similar releases. Beyond that, there are other, more significant reasons for the wording. This document from the state government of Indiana indicates how and why law enforcement works with the coroner, and spells out the nature of their relationship and shows how it goes well beyond just the two parties. I think if you look at that document, you'll get the sense that the wording of "a report is being prepared for the coroner" implies this working relationship is occurring and tells the public that due process is being followed. Viriditas (talk) 23:39, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think of language like that as being an example of journalese in action. You can't just say that someone died, because the reader wants to know the cause of death, but you can't say what it is, because the report hasn't been released yet. So you fall back on the stock phrase.
- The example I notice (in the U.S.) occurs almost every night on the television news. If there's been a bad house fire, that's automatically newsworthy, especially if there's video. Pretty much without exception, they close the segment on these stories with the words, "The cause of the fire is under investigation." It is, again, the journalist's way of telling you, "I know there's something you're wondering, and it's my job as a journalist to anticipate your questions and answer them in my report, but the cause of the fire isn't known yet. I'd tell you if I knew, really." —scs (talk) 13:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, scs. I guess that makes the most sense.
- This isn't such a case, I now realise, but I'm just highly allergic to journos trotting out (what seem like) the same tired old cliches without apparently giving it much or any thought. The worst case is the reports of traffic fatalities. When the road toll takes a sudden jump due to multiple accidents in a short period, they tell us what the state's road toll is so far this year, and then give us a comparison with how many had died in the same period last year. I always wonder why that's relevant, as if whatever last year's stats were is any kind of benchmark. What if last year's running tally was higher than the long-term average, or lower? Anyway, that's my rant for the day. Cheers, and safe driving. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:48, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
August 9
[edit]Are there more plants besides Cannabis with similar effects that have been banned in many world countries?
[edit]I know that there are legal limitations on Khat and Kratom and perhaps also on Betel nut (and of course Tobacco) but more because of their stimulant and/or addictive properties, not because of their possible muscle-relaxing and sedating and addictive nature such as with many Cannabis cultivars (if I am not mistaken, some Cannabis cultivars may include stimulants themselves).
Anyway, my question is, are there more plants that are illegal besides Cannabis due to generally having muscle relaxing and/or sedating (but seldom also anxiety-inducing) effects?
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.199.70.194 (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- The peyote, a cactus, is on the US list of Schedule I controlled substances, with an exemption for use in "bona fide religious ceremonies of the Native American Church"; see Peyote § Legality—United States. Its possession, as that of several other species of psychoactive cacti, is also illegal in several other countries around the world; see Legal status of psychoactive cacti by country. --Lambiam 20:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- See also Legal status of psilocybin mushrooms, if fungi fall within your definition of plants - they have had their own separate biological kingdom since 1969. Alansplodge (talk) 13:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think peyote and mushrooms are known for their muscle relaxing and sedating effects, per the OPs original question. Viriditas (talk) 20:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- See also Legal status of psilocybin mushrooms, if fungi fall within your definition of plants - they have had their own separate biological kingdom since 1969. Alansplodge (talk) 13:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Opium poppies? Too obvious? There's kava. Card Zero (talk) 14:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
August 10
[edit]Hudson's Bay Company Lands
[edit]Hi, the article says that when Rupert's land was transferred to Canada, the company kept some of the land (like 1/12th of all cropland or even additional land). Question, is this land still retained by the company currently or did it sell it? Thanks in advance. Vyacheslav84 (talk) 22:08, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- The land was negotiated in the Deed of Surrender. wikisource:Rupert's Land and North-Western Territory Order/Schedule C has a table of the lands that the HBC chose to keep. This page mentions that
Large holdings of land negotiated as part of the Deed of Surrender took the Company into real estate. The sale of homesteads to newly-arrived settlers would later evolve into a full-scale interest in commercial property holdings and development.
For an example of what that process looked like, History of Winnipeg#Development and incorporation has information on how the HBC subdivided and sold the lands they held around Fort Garry to form part of Winnipeg. Pinguinn 🐧 23:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)- Thank you very much, does the company now own the lands? --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 14:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- It seems like they've all been sold off by now. HBC Properties and Investments is their current real estate division but its properties are all retail related. Pinguinn 🐧 22:02, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- In addition to the above - they underwent other corporate changes which would have moved land / real estate with it. Mainly Northern Stores being split off into what is now a shareholder company. Komonzia (talk) 01:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks so much, is it possible to track when they sold the last parcels of land? --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 11:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you very much, does the company now own the lands? --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 14:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
August 14
[edit]Criminal charges: information in the public domain in England
[edit]If an individual is charged with a criminal offence in England, is that a matter of public record? Can the charges brought be viewed by the public, and if so how? And say the case never comes to court for whatever reason – for example, because the charges are dropped. Are the reasons for the charges being dropped made public? --Viennese Waltz 14:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- In the United Kingdom a D-Notice is an official request to news editors not to publish or broadcast items on specified subjects for reasons of national security. The Independent Press Standards Organisation is supposed to deal with issues such as accuracy, invasion of privacy, intrusion into grief or shock and harassment. Philvoids (talk) 20:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- National Security - the next-to-last refuge of a scoundrel. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:50, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, it is not by default part of the public record. Not all charges lead to trials (trials are by default public), and people who are charged or investigated generally have the right to privacy considered and balanced. See here for more info: https://www.brettwilson.co.uk/blog/reporting-restrictions-in-criminal-courts/ (a blog post but it refers to cases). For dropping charges, sometimes it is part of a plea deal and up to the parties in question sometimes as part of the deal itself whether or not it will be public.
- For family courts, it is even more likely to be secret, but changing recently: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64411229 - Komonzia (talk) 04:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
August 15
[edit]Why does the Man in the Yellow Hat own two houses?
[edit]If you're a Curious George fan, you might remember that the Man in the Yellow Hat owns two houses: a cottage in the countryside and an apartment in the city. I'm not sure how it's practical to own two properties when they're a considerable distance apart and you have to pay a hefty sum for said properties. TWOrantulaTM (enter the web) 04:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Owning two (or more) houses is not at all unusual for those who can afford it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed, see second home for examples. Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Air conditioning didn't become widespread until the 1960s. Prior to that time, people who could afford it would escape the summer heat in the city and leave for cooler environs if they could. While it's true that the countryside could often be warmer than the city in some places, I think that if it was at a slightly higher elevation, the air would be cooler. I suppose that if the country house was in a valley, it could be a problem. My grandparents didn't get AC in their city house until the 1950s, I believe. Viriditas (talk) 21:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just remembered something else that I discovered while researching the California Coastal Trail. Many people here probably already know this, but up until the 20th century, Americans didn't really travel all that far from home in terms of distance to escape the summer heat. For example, early tourism in California, from around 1880-1914, generally involved people traveling less than 50 miles to go on vacation from their local communities. This was especially true in places like San Francisco, Oakland, and Berkeley in Northern California, and Riverside and San Diego in the southern part of the state. In recent years, the stark contrasts between two places so close together have been lost to time, as urbanization and the loss of green space have flattened out the differences between the urban and country environments. But in the 1970s, I had a unique opportunity to travel widely throughout the state, and back then you could still notice a kind of transformation when you crossed from San Francisco to the East Bay or from Los Angeles to Riverside to San Diego. It was easy, therefore to imagine, how people in the late 19th and early 20th centuries could travel very short distances and think that they were on some kind of remote, exotic vacation. That's all gone today. Viriditas (talk) 22:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The entire government of British India used to move from Calcutta to Simla (something like 1000 miles) to escape the summer heat. 50 miles is really not trying. DuncanHill (talk) 23:09, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Right, but the state of California is famous for regional microclimates within the space of just a few kilometers. Heck, try walking one mile from the Mission to Noe Valley in SF. It's like you've traveled to another world in terms of climate. Now extrapolate that out, farther and father. My point is that 50 miles in California really was like traveling to another country at one time based on climate and environmental variability. On the Big Island of Hawaii there are eight climates alone. This is the same idea in a smaller space. Viriditas (talk) 23:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Even just San Francisco has microclimates. Had Mark Twain lived in Potrero Hill, he would not have issued his biting judgement of summer in San Francisco. --Lambiam 01:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Right, but the state of California is famous for regional microclimates within the space of just a few kilometers. Heck, try walking one mile from the Mission to Noe Valley in SF. It's like you've traveled to another world in terms of climate. Now extrapolate that out, farther and father. My point is that 50 miles in California really was like traveling to another country at one time based on climate and environmental variability. On the Big Island of Hawaii there are eight climates alone. This is the same idea in a smaller space. Viriditas (talk) 23:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The entire government of British India used to move from Calcutta to Simla (something like 1000 miles) to escape the summer heat. 50 miles is really not trying. DuncanHill (talk) 23:09, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just remembered something else that I discovered while researching the California Coastal Trail. Many people here probably already know this, but up until the 20th century, Americans didn't really travel all that far from home in terms of distance to escape the summer heat. For example, early tourism in California, from around 1880-1914, generally involved people traveling less than 50 miles to go on vacation from their local communities. This was especially true in places like San Francisco, Oakland, and Berkeley in Northern California, and Riverside and San Diego in the southern part of the state. In recent years, the stark contrasts between two places so close together have been lost to time, as urbanization and the loss of green space have flattened out the differences between the urban and country environments. But in the 1970s, I had a unique opportunity to travel widely throughout the state, and back then you could still notice a kind of transformation when you crossed from San Francisco to the East Bay or from Los Angeles to Riverside to San Diego. It was easy, therefore to imagine, how people in the late 19th and early 20th centuries could travel very short distances and think that they were on some kind of remote, exotic vacation. That's all gone today. Viriditas (talk) 22:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
applied psychology: conflict management
[edit]I am looking for information about a concept from applied psychology that has to do with managing conflict: it is about classifying the person you are in conflict with using two independent dimensions: one is aggressive vs nonaggressive, i forgot what the other one was, maybe cooperativeness. The trick is, in conversation, to use this classification to adjust your own behavior to be in a different quadrant: in my memory (I read this somewhere on Wikipedia an now I cannot find it back) it had to be either an adjacent quadrant or the opposite one, I cannot remember which.
Could you help me identify which method this is? I am kicking myself for not bookmarking this page. Which I guess makes me aggressive/noncooperative.
GilHamiltonTheArm (talk) 11:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I found a PhD thesis online, Identifying the Factors That Influence Conflict Management Behavior of Human Resource Professionals in the Workplace, that may contain the answer in Chapter 2: Literature Review. I think it is by itself an interesting read; in an organizational context such as a workplace there is the issue of what one seeks to achieve in managing a conflict; there may be a tension between the organizational goals and the interpersonal goals. --Lambiam 12:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your help, Lambiam.
- However, while the author mentions, in the literature review, the idea of using different conflict resolution modes in different situations, the text focuses more on people that have chosen a "best" approach.
- It seems to me that this is not exactly the same subject: for example, "compromise" may be the best approach between two parties of equivalent power, when not much time is available for negotiation. This does not address the issue of personality. Also, it makes me think that I may have misunderstood this aspect: it is possible that it isn't about personality, but about adjusting your "conflict management strategy" to the affect/emotion of the other party.
- GilHamiltonTheArm (talk) 13:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- This sounds very much like a variation of Nonviolent Communication. Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Frequency of the 24 possible permutations of the last 4 Christmas gifts
[edit]There are 24 possible permutations of the last 4 gifts in The Twelve Days of Christmas. Those are the following:
- Nine ladies dancing, ten lords a-leaping, eleven pipers piping, and twelve drummers drumming
- Nine ladies dancing, ten lords a-leaping, eleven drummers drumming, and twelve pipers piping
- Nine ladies dancing, ten pipers piping, eleven lords a-leaping, and twelve drummers drumming
- Nine ladies dancing, ten pipers piping, eleven drummers drumming, and twelve lords a-leaping
- Nine ladies dancing, ten drummers drumming, eleven lords a-leaping, and twelve pipers piping
- Nine ladies dancing, ten drummers drumming, eleven pipers piping, and twelve lords a-leaping
- Nine lords a-leaping, ten ladies dancing, eleven pipers piping, and twelve drummers drumming
- Nine lords a-leaping, ten ladies dancing, eleven drummers drumming, and twelve pipers piping
- Nine lords a-leaping, ten pipers piping, eleven ladies dancing, and twelve drummers drumming
- Nine lords a-leaping, ten pipers piping, eleven drummers drumming, and twelve ladies dancing
- Nine lords a-leaping, ten drummers drumming, eleven ladies dancing, and twelve pipers piping
- Nine lords a-leaping, ten drummers drumming, eleven pipers piping, and twelve ladies dancing
- Nine pipers piping, ten ladies dancing, eleven lords a-leaping, and twelve drummers drumming
- Nine pipers piping, ten ladies dancing, eleven drummers drumming, and twelve lords a-leaping
- Nine pipers piping, ten lords a-leaping, eleven ladies dancing, and twelve drummers drumming
- Nine pipers piping, ten lords a-leaping, eleven drummers drumming, and twelve ladies dancing
- Nine pipers piping, ten drummers drumming, eleven ladies dancing, and twelve lords a-leaping
- Nine pipers piping, ten drummers drumming, eleven lords a-leaping, and twelve ladies dancing
- Nine drummers drumming, ten ladies dancing, eleven lords a-leaping, and twelve pipers piping
- Nine drummers drumming, ten ladies dancing, eleven pipers piping, and twelve lords a-leaping
- Nine drummers drumming, ten lords a-leaping, eleven ladies dancing, and twelve pipers piping
- Nine drummers drumming, ten lords a-leaping, eleven pipers piping, and twelve ladies dancing
- Nine drummers drumming, ten pipers piping, eleven ladies dancing, and twelve lords a-leaping
- Nine drummers drumming, ten pipers piping, eleven lords a-leaping, and twelve ladies dancing
But how frequently are each of the above 24 permutations used for the last 4 gifts in The Twelve Days of Christmas? In particular, what is the rarest possible permutation? I would expect the most common order to be the "Nine ladies dancing, ten lords a-leaping, eleven pipers piping, and twelve drummers drumming" order, which is the first one in the list above.
GTrang (talk) 21:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Don't they normally count down from twelve? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, there is only one permutation permutating (weather permuting). Clarityfiend (talk) 03:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is this really a question about combinatorics, and not about the song? I've sometimes seen The Twelve Days of Christmas used to pose mathematical problems, but I think the usual question is how many gifts in total by the end. (364 according to our article.) You may be basing your question on an imaginary version of the song where the number of items, per-gift, changes with each verse, and since you ask about permutations, the numbers must cycle independently, which suggests it would be an extremely long song, maybe 1! + 2! + 3! ... 12! verses. Card Zero (talk) 04:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I interpreted the question how frequently these permutations are used as asking about the statistics of the population of renderings of these songs (which may be different for the population of versions in print and that sung in family gatherings). Both "twelve ladies dancing, eleven pipers piping" and "twelve pipers piping, eleven ladies dancing" have zero ghits. --Lambiam 11:47, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. "The gifts associated with the final four days are often reordered", says our article. Card Zero (talk) 12:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I interpreted the question how frequently these permutations are used as asking about the statistics of the population of renderings of these songs (which may be different for the population of versions in print and that sung in family gatherings). Both "twelve ladies dancing, eleven pipers piping" and "twelve pipers piping, eleven ladies dancing" have zero ghits. --Lambiam 11:47, 16 August 2024 (UTC)